Sven Fund |
One of a series exploring the current
state of Open Access (OA), the Q&A below is with Sven Fund,
CEO of Berlin-based scholarly publisher De Gruyter. Fund is the first representative
of a traditional commercial publisher to take part in this series.
By
any account De Gruyter can fairly be described as a traditional publisher (or
as OA advocates prefer, “legacy publisher”). Created by Walter De Gruyter in
1919 by combining five existing publishers, De Gruyter’s roots go back to 1749
when the bookstore of the Königlichen Realschule in Berlin was given the right
to print books by King Frederick II of Prussia.
In
1801 Königlichen Realschule was taken over by Georg Reimer, and Georg
Reimer Publishers was one of the companies merged to form Walter De Gruyter
& Co in 1919.
Today
De Gruyter’s publishing program includes theology and philosophy, biology and
chemistry, linguistics and literature, mathematics and physics, history and
archaeology, as well as law and medicine.
Please scroll through
the introduction to go direct to the Q&A
Open Access to papers and books
Like
other traditional publishers De Gruyter has in recent years launched a number
of Open Access initiatives. In April 2009 — five years after Springer pioneered
Hybrid OA when it
introduced Open Choice — De Gruyter announced the De Gruyter
Open Library,
introducing OA options for both its journals (pure Gold and Hybrid OA), as
well as books.
In
2009 De Gruyter also announced that, from
2010, it would be publishing the “Topoi. Berlin Studies of the Ancient World”
series, thereby expanding its OA efforts into the humanities. A partnership
with the Excellence Cluster Topoi, with funding
from the German Research Foundation, the series
encompasses all the disciplines of Ancient Studies, from prehistory and early
history through classical archaeology to antique philosophy, epistemology and
theology.
As
well as being published in print book form, selected titles from the Topoi series
are also available as OA eBooks on the www.degruyter.com website. The
Topoi initiative was featured as an Open
Access Success Story by Knowledge
Exchange
in 2009.
Currently
De Gruyter publishes twelve pure OA journals, and all of its 364 subscription
journals now offer a Hybrid OA option. And to date it has published 47 OA books
under its own OA books
programme.
This includes some that will be published next year.
De
Gruyter’s most daring OA move, however, came in 2010, when it acquired the Polish OA
publisher Versita, which currently
publishes 439 pure OA journals — an acquisition reminiscent of Springer’s
decision to acquire BioMed
Central in 2008.
How
much does De Gruyter charge for its different OA options? The article-processing
charge for both pure Gold and Hybrid OA is currently €1,750 ($2,450). The cost
of publishing a book is less clear. When I asked the publisher’s PR
representative she said she did not know. So I emailed a few authors who had
published OA books with De Gruyter. Those that replied said they had been given
special discounted deals, with one citing a figure of €5,000. By way of
comparison, we could note that Palgrave Macmillan currently charges £11,000 ($17,500) to publish an
OA book, and Springer charges around €15,000.
What
about Green OA? According
to the SHERPA/ROMEO database, De Gruyter is a “yellow” publisher rather than a
green one. Specifically, it allows authors only to archive
their pre-prints, and only on their own personal web site. It also imposes a
12-month embargo.
Elliptical
What
did I find noteworthy about Fund’s replies to my questions? A couple of things.
First,
I felt his answers tended to the elliptical. When I asked him about Gold vs.
Green, for instance, he said of Green OA, “In my opinion, there is nothing bad
about Green OA in general, it is just not something that we can “offer” … If
policymakers believe they have the right tools to publish, i.e. in Green OA,
that’s their right. It is certainly not something that publishers like, but I
think that is obvious.”
I
take this latter point to be a reference to the National Institutes of Health (NIH) Public Access Policy, which
requires that papers it funds are deposited in the PubMed Central repository no
later than 12 months after publication. If so, I doubt OA advocates would agree
that posting copies of papers that have already been published in journals into
a repository amounts to “publication”. Moreover, it is my understanding that
the majority of papers deposited in PubMed Central (and Europe
PubMed Central)
are placed there
by publishers,
rather than by authors.
Similarly,
when I asked Fund whether De Gruyter had ever lobbied against OA he did not
address that part of my question. While acknowledging that some publishers may
be less enthusiastic about OA than others, he simply said, “I do not see any room
for conspiracy theory.”
It
may be that De Gruyter has never lobbied against OA. If so, it would have been
nice if Fund had said as much [But see
postscript below **]. What we do know is that some publishers have lobbied,
and do still lobby, against OA. The most notable example of this was in 2007, when
Nature reported on the activities
of PRISM (full text here).
This
would seem to suggest that believing publishers conspire against OA is not
evidence of paranoia, but of evidence-based reasoning. Indeed, when I spoke to
Springer CEO Derk Haank in 2011 he confirmed that Springer
lobbies against OA mandates. This despite the fact that Springer was the first traditional
publisher to embrace OA, and is today the most exposed to it.
That
publishers have conspired against OA was evidenced most recently at the end of
2011, when the controversial US Research Works Act was defeated
as a result of energetic resistance from the OA movement (along with a boycott of Elsevier by researchers).
However,
for me the most interesting part of Fund’s answers to my questions were his comments
on Hybrid OA. Contrary to most of the interviewees in this series so far, Fund is
very positive about this form of OA. Indeed, he says, he personally “would like
to see more Hybrid OA.”
What
of the dangers of double-dipping associated with Hybrid OA (where research
institutions can find themselves having to pay both subscriptions and Hybrid OA charges for the same
journal)? While sympathetic to funder concerns about this, Fund argues that if the
research community wants to avoid seeing an unnecessary plethora of OA doppelgängers
created to replicate current subscription journals, it will have to accept that
some double-dipping is inevitable.
The myth of double-dipping
As
Fund put it, [I]t does not make a lot of sense to duplicate every subscription-based
journal with an OA one … That is the reason I would advocate Hybrid OA, keeping
in mind that we need to solve the myth of double-dipping. The math seems easy:
accept a low level of double-dipping versus funding parallel systems.”
When
Fund talks of the myth of double-dipping I assume he is referring to his belief
that any additional costs incurred as a result of Hybrid OA will be inconsequential.
As he puts it, “According to a brief study I did for a German Research
Foundation workshop earlier this year among four publishers, the actual
occurrence of double-dipping in that sample was negligible. For our own
portfolio, it is not an issue at all, even though we have offered Hybrid OA for
all of our journals for years.”
What
does negligible mean in this context? Presumably it means that a negligible
number of Hybrid OA papers are currently being published. But what happens if,
as Fund would like, the number published rises? At De Gruyter’s rate of $2,450
per paper the additional cost to the research community would surely soon become
substantial?
Be
that as it may, Green OA advocate Stevan Harnad argues that,
whatever additional costs might or might not arise from Hybrid OA, publisher
attempts to mitigate double-dipping (i.e. by reducing journal subscriptions to
reflect any additional revenue earned from Hybrid OA) are inherently inadequate
and unfair. “The calculation is simple,” he says.
“Even if all Hybrid Gold OA revenues were given back as a subscription rebate
to all subscribing institutions, those authors who paid for Hybrid Gold would
simply be subsidising
all other subscribing institutions, paying
pounds so everyone (including themselves) gets back pennies. Hybrid Gold would
be doing exactly what it was always intended to do: propping up publishers’
current revenue-streams and modus operandi.”
If publishers really wanted to avoid
double-dipping, suggests Harnad, what might at first glance look like a more equitable
solution would be this: Where the institution of any author paying for Hybrid
OA has a subscription to the journal in question, the publisher gives that
institution a full rebate.
But publishers are highly unlikely
to adopt such an approach Harnad adds — since it is “tantamount to saying that
authors at subscribing institutions can publish Gold OA at no extra cost — and
that solution becomes increasingly unstable as more and more authors at
subscribing institutions take advantage of the free Gold OA option: The journal
is thereby becoming free for all, so institutions will cancel subscriptions
(much more surely and quickly within a single journal than with mandated Green
OA self-archiving of authors' final drafts, which grows slowly and anarchically
across journals).”
If correct, this would seem to imply
that introducing an equitable means of avoiding double-dipping could lead to
more journals being cancelled, and more quickly, than publishers claim Green OA
threatens.
Consequently, says Harnad, a far
better approach for the research community “is for authors to provide Green OA in parallel: that will not only provide
OA itself — but also the pressure needed to force journals to adapt to the OA
era by downsizing and converting to Fair Gold.”
Whatever
the rights and wrongs of their disagreements over the best way forward, it is
hard not to conclude that publishers and OA advocates are often talking past
each other. Perhaps this is unsurprising: their interests increasingly do not
coincide, and the gap appears to be growing year by year.
No
doubt this is partly because they tend to approach issues of funding and costs
in very different ways. Publishers have perforce to focus on long-term
sustainability. For them, therefore, it is important that any new initiative looks
likely to become self-funding. And in many cases they will also want it to provide
a sufficient surplus to help fund subsequent new initiatives.
Researchers,
by contrast, tend to take a short-term view to funding, not least because much
of their working life is devoted to the pursuit of funding for one-off projects
that they must assume will die once funding ends.
So
while, as Fund concedes, some publishers make excessive profits, it may be that
researchers are too quick to assume that all publishers are exploitative. The
key question raised by OA, however, is whether publishers are, as Harnad
believes, seeking to lock their existing revenues in to a new publishing
environment in which many of the services they currently offer are (or are set
to become) redundant. If that is right, it would suggest that publisher
revenues ought by rights to fall, with obvious implications for profitability.
What
is hard to establish today is whether the silent majority in the research
community share the increasingly belligerent views — and publisher hostility —
demonstrated by many OA advocates. The OA policy introduced by
Research Councils UK (RCUK) earlier this
year has at least focussed researchers’ minds on OA more sharply. The result: Many
humanities scholars have concluded that a policy
designed for scientists is being inappropriately foisted on them. And as
scientists find themselves being asked to pay several
thousand dollars per paper to publish their research, their initial
enthusiasm for OA could be starting to wane.
Sea change?
This
new realism came to a head last week with the publication of a report into
OA by the UK House of
Commons BIS Select Committee.
The
BIS Committee has called on the UK government to do a U-turn on its OA policy,
and prioritise Green OA rather than Gold, while lowering the upper limit on
publisher embargoes to 6 months for STEM subjects and 12 months for HASS
subjects. (Currently 12 months and
24 months).
It has also called for papers to be deposited immediately (although not
necessarily made OA immediately), and recommended that if RCUK does continue to prefer Gold OA, then Hybrid OA should no longer be funded.
I
sent my questions to Fund prior to the publication of the BIS report. So when I
received his answers I emailed him back to ask what implications he thought the
report would have for De Gruyter’s business, and its various OA initiatives — if
the UK government followed the Committee’s recommendations.
He
replied, “I have to admit that I have no opinion on this yet.”
In
fact, UK Select Committees have no power to force change on governments. By
convention, the government responds to select committee reports within two
months, but it is not bound to accept any of the recommendations made. Indeed, it
may reject every single one.
Nevertheless,
given the widespread unrest surrounding the RCUK policy, OA advocates find it
hard to believe that the report will have no impact on OA in the UK, if only to
re-open discussion of many issues that publishers had hoped were settled.
We
could also point out that in 2009-2010 a number of reforms were made to the way in
which select committees operate. This, it is argued, has made them
more powerful. Additionally, the UK currently has a coalition government, and
coalitions tend to make the executive arm of government more susceptible to
pressure from the House of Commons.
It
may be, therefore, that the BIS Committee report — combined with increasing success
in ensuring compliance of the NIH Public Access Policy, and the growing
number of Harvard-style and Liège-style OA policies being introduced by
universities around the world (e.g. here) — will lead to a sea change in the way in which
OA develops.
On
the other hand, the UK Minister for Universities and Science David Willetts does seem
determined to stick to his Gold OA guns.
In
short, we cannot yet know what impact (if any) the BIS report will have. For
that reason, it is doubtless wise of Fund to withhold opinion for now.
== POSTCRIPT==
** When
I sent a copy of my introduction to Fund he commented, “Just for the record:
No, De Gruyter has never lobbied against OA.”
The Q&A begins
Q: Earlier in this Q&A series publishing
consultant Joe Esposito suggested that Open
Access will never be more than a niche activity. As he put it, OA will be “a
useful, marginal activity that opens up a new class of customers through the
author-pays model … OA is marginal in the sense that most research is performed
at a small number of institutions. ‘Most’ is not the same thing as ‘all.’ Those
institutions subscribe to most (not all) of the relevant materials. So by
definition the access granted by OA is marginal to what researchers at the
major institutions already have. Nothing wrong with working on the margins, but
let’s call it what it is.” Is this a view you share? If so, why (what is the
evidence for and against?) If not, what are your expectations for OA?
A: I agree with
that statement. And I would add to Joe Esposito’s argument that there have been
very few technical innovations in the media industry that managed to completely
eradicate the technology they initially protested against.
For me, open access is an important
corrective and an alternative business model that will be around and will also become
more important in the future, but subscription or purchase-based business
models will not go away completely.
Q: In another earlier
Q&A in this series a former Vice President of De
Gruyter Alexander Grossmann said, “I have the impression that there is no
publishing house which is either able or willing to consider the rigorous
change in their business models which would be required to actively pursue an
open access publishing concept. However, the publishers are certainly aware of
the PR value of Open Access and many are taking steps in this direction by
founding new gold Open Access journals, offering hybrid models or acquiring OA
companies. All attractive trimmings as long as the profit margins from
subscription-based journals are not threatened. Active lobbying against OA
takes place in parallel to these cosmetic offerings.” Would you agree with that
assessment? Why? Why not? Has De Gruyter ever lobbied against OA?
A: I cannot
imagine Alexander had De Gruyter in mind with this statement because he knows
that, on the contrary, we have invested significantly in OA, not only with the
acquisition of Versita in 2012, but also by launching new business models like
open access for books as early as 2009.
After the debates of the last decade,
I do not know of any publisher that is not genuinely interested in OA. It is
true that this is to varying degrees, but I do not see any room for conspiracy
theory.
Q: There has always been a great deal of
discussion (and disagreement) about Green and Gold OA. In light of recent
developments (e.g. the OSTP
Memorandum, the RCUK OA policy, the European
Research Council Guidelines on
OA and the new OA policy at the
University of California) what are the respective roles that you expect Green
and Gold OA to play going forward?
A: I think it is
obvious that publishers — much like anybody who has to cover costs associated
with a certain activity from revenues of that activity and not from general
funds — have to focus on Gold OA. In my opinion, there is nothing bad about
Green OA in general, it is just not something that we can “offer”. If
institutions want to go ahead here and fund this activity, it is not up to
publishers to complain how others spend their money.
Regarding public policies, I do not
see much of a difference. If policymakers believe they have the right tools to
publish, i.e. in Green OA, that’s their right. It is certainly not something
that publishers like, but I think that is obvious.
Q: What about Hybrid OA, which most of
those in this Q&A series have expressed some concern about? What role do
you expect to see this play going forward, and why is it invariably more
expensive than pure Gold OA (after all, it allows a journal to increase the revenue
it earns though “double-dipping”)?
A: Hybrid OA is
an attractive model for researchers — with serious concerns for funders. It is compelling
to publish OA articles in very established journals with high reputation and
impact.
However, I do understand the concern
about double-dipping. According to a brief study I did for a German Research
Foundation workshop earlier this year among four publishers, the actual occurrence
of double-dipping in that sample was negligible.
For our own portfolio, it is not an
issue at all, even though we have offered Hybrid OA for all of our journals for
years. Since we consider ourselves a service institution for both researchers
and librarians, I personally would like to see more Hybrid OA.
Q: How would you characterise the current
state of OA, both locally and internationally?
A: There has
been no discussion on academic publishing that I have participated in over the
past several years where OA was not a central issue. Just recently, we held an
OA seminar in China with a group of librarians, researchers, and publishers. It
seems that local developments are becoming less significant in comparison to
global ones.
Not only awareness, but also practices
are being adjusted at a rather fast pace, presumably driven not only by
conferences of funders around the globe, but also by publishers that are active
in this field.
The “globalization” of the OA discourse
is a good sign that the existing ecosystem of academic publishing is intact —
and that it is able to innovate.
Q: What still needs to be done, and by
whom?
A: In my opinion,
there are three elements that need to be looked at:
First of all, I do not see any reason
why every publisher should not have an OA policy in place. It would not only
increase competition, but also the competitiveness of the model as a whole.
Particularly smaller publishers could be a credible alternative to those who are
already trying to consolidate the young and dynamic market.
Secondly, I feel that academic
institutions have to decide who will administer their OA funds. Is it the
library? Is it an office of communication or another office? Our preference is
clear: It should be the library, since it is in many cases the only institution
on campus that can shift budgets from subscriptions or purchases to OA funds. More
importantly, it is the only one that can do so without disrupting information
supply to its research community.
Thirdly, policymakers should be aware
that they are posing a tough challenge to the academic community by migrating
from one business model to another without granting additional resources.
Q: What in your view is the single
most important task that the OA movement should focus on today?
A: Clearly, this
would be professionalization on all sides. We need to make OA-at-large less of
an experiment and more of a standard practice that also embraces more stakeholders.
By now, many of our authors have heard about the concept, but much still needs
to be done to make it a part of their daily publishing “routine”.
Q: Do you think that OA inevitably leads to
conflict and disagreement between publishers and the research community? Certainly
in the wake of the failed attempt to get the Research Works
Act passed in the US there appears to be growing
disenchantment amongst researchers with commercial publishers. In the first
Q&A in this series, for instance, palaeontologist Mike Taylor argued that legacy
publishers “are not our partners, they're our exploiters”. Is it that
researchers, librarians and research funders expect more of publishers than
they can reasonably deliver? Is it that the profits of scholarly publishers
are, as critics argue, excessively high? Or is there some other reason for this
disenchantment?
A: I see
publishers as an integral part of the scholarly ecosystem. So far, both partners
— and, in fact, many more — could not do without the other. I don’t see what
should have changed here compared to 20 or 100 years ago.
Regarding rising demand: It is true
that librarians, researchers and funders are more demanding than they seem to
have been in the past, and it is not easy to live up to their expectations. However,
they are the ones who must foot the bill in one way or the other, and if
publishers want to survive, they have to make serious steps to increase their level
of service orientation. If they don’t, they will disappear.
Are publishers’ profits excessively
high? Well, some are. But as we do not judge any academic by the fraudulent
behaviour some show, we should not judge all publishers by the profits a few
make. I feel that De Gruyter’s moderate profit secures it sustainability; it is
not excessive, and it is information which is completely transparent and
available to everyone.
Q: The seeds of the OA movement
(certainly for librarians) lie in the so-called “serials crisis”, which is an
affordability problem. It was this affordability problem that created the accessibility
problem that OA was intended to solve. Yet Esposito believes that OA will be
“additive, not substitutive”, suggesting that OA will see the costs of
disseminating research increase rather than decrease. OA advocates, meanwhile,
argue that OA will be less expensive than subscription publishing. What are
your views on the question of costs? Does cost really matter anyway?
A: Of course
costs matter. It would be staircase wit if OA costs
would suddenly become a minor issue. That is why funders and researchers need
competition: it will bring costs down on a per-article level, as we have
already observed over the past years.
What’s more difficult is the overall
cost of an additional model like OA to the existing system. I agree that it
does not make a lot of sense to duplicate every subscription-based journal with
an OA one, and if Joe Esposito has this in mind, I agree.
That is the reason I would advocate
Hybrid OA, keeping in mind that we need to solve the myth of double-dipping.
The math seems easy: accept a low level of double-dipping versus funding parallel
systems.
Q: What are your expectations for OA
over the next 12 months?
A: I assume that
Gold OA will continue to grow and potentially expand more into books and also
start to be a topic for databases.
And with the increasing activity of
more “traditional” publishers, I expect that it will be much more difficult for
new players entering the arena.
Finally, I hope that we will make even
more progress in getting beyond the political dimension towards a debate that
creates value for the academic ecosystem.
~~~~~
Born in 1973,
between 1993 and 2000 Sven Fund studied International Relations,
History, and Communications in Münster, Berlin, and St Louis, receiving a
Master of Arts at Washington University in 1996, and a PhD in International Relations
2000.
~~~~~
Earlier contributors to
this series include palaeontologist Mike Taylor, cognitive scientist Stevan Harnad, former librarian Fred Friend, SPARC director Heather
Joseph,
publishing consultant Joseph
Esposito, de
facto leader of the Open Access movement Peter Suber,Open Access Advocacy leader at the Latin American
Council on Social Sciences (CLACSO) Dominique Babini, and Cameron Neylon, advocacy director for the
non-profit OA publisher Public Library of Science (PLOS).
Mr. Fund, after avoiding answering questions about de Gruyter anti-OA lobbyism eventually stated: “Just for the record: No, De Gruyter has never lobbied against OA.”
ReplyDeleteThis sounds somewhat disingenuous, to be polite, as de Gruyter is a member of the Börsenverein des Deutschen Buchhandels:
http://www.boersenverein.de/de/portal/Mitgliedersuche/158377?suchstring=gruyter&plz=&lv=
This trade organization for German publishers states on their own website that they do lobby 'intensively' alongside legislative author's right reform in Germany:
http://www.boersenverein.de/de/404789
Their website also leaves no doubt what they think about open access and what their "intensive lobbying efforts" attempt to accomplish:
http://www.boersenverein.de/de/portal/index.html?meldung_id=624387
All of this information was found by simply typing
Börsenverein "open access" into Google and clicking on the first two links.
It has not escaped our notice that the fact that Mr. Fund apparently finds it completely safe to answer that de Gruyter never lobbied against OA in the face of such public information, speaks volumes about what Mr. Fund thinks about the intellectual capacity of his audience.
I've summarized my points also here:
http://bjoern.brembs.net/2013/09/is-de-gruyters-lobby-by-proxy-not-lobbyism/
Bjoern (if I may),
ReplyDeleteit is true that De Gruyter is member of the Boersenverein. And it is no secret that I am not at all happy with thei organization's position about open access. I am sure their management is happy to testify. Why should I doubt the "intellectual capacity" of Richard's readers? Any prejudice??
Best
Sven
Dear Sven (if I may),
ReplyDeleteyou write: "Why should I doubt the "intellectual capacity" of Richard's readers? Any prejudice??"
To the first question, it appears as if you do not expect this audience neither to be capable of searching online to test the veracity of your claims, nor of seeing through the "I'm not happy with their stance on OA" evasion tactics. If anything, at least from my point of view, your reply has has made your contempt for the readership here even more apparent.
As to your second question about my supposed prejudice: first, I must thank you for demonstrating my case so clearly with your blatant "I support the organization, but not their stance on OA" - it not only adds insult to injury with your disingenuous statement in the interview above, it also follows and reinforces what we've come to expect from publishers: e.g., the support of most US publishers of the RWA through the Association of American Publishers and their identical evasion afterwards.
Thus, it's not pre-judice to expect this behavior, it's experience with PRISM, RWA, fake journals, SOPA, lawsuits against librarians, publishers' support of a wide variety of anti-OA organizations and so on. An expectation that you just reinforced, thanks again.
Best,
Björn
P.S.: Just in the odd case I haven't made myself clear enough: I just discussed this situation with my colleagues here over lunch. I was reminded of it by the behavior of a group of students who had handed in a lab report which was formatted justified for the most part, except two pages where the text was aligned on the left and some words were underlined in blue (those were the two pages copied from Wikipedia, of course). Your statement that de Gruyter never lobbied against OA when a powerful organization you support states on their own site that it does just that, is about as insulting to anybody reading that interview above, as it is to copy-and-paste two pages from Wikipedia without even bothering to take the links out of the text in a lab report. Doubling down on the insult by evasion just made it worse, as it demonstrated that you didn't make a mistake, when you made the statement, but were aware that you supported an anti-OA lobby organization. Just like the students with their Wikipedia article, you apparently thought that this is appropriate behavior, which is precisely how publishers have been behaving for the last decade or more.
Oh, and just to be sure: did you just write that there is not even any public record of you disagreeing with the work of the Börsenverein?
ReplyDeleteI would prefer that this discussion did not become too heated, or too personal.
ReplyDeleteThat said, I think it fair to ask whether — if it disagrees with the actions and the policies of the Boersenverein — De Gruyter ought not to consider leaving the organisation.
Is this something that De Gruyter has considered and, if it has, why did it apparently decide against doing so?
Sven Fund said: "I feel that De Gruyter’s moderate profit secures it sustainability; it is not excessive, and it is information which is completely transparent and available to everyone."
ReplyDeleteWhere is this information? While Elsevier is forced to publish their profit rates since they are on the stock market and Springer publishes the profit rates since they want to go to the stock market, I do not know of any publication that discusses the profit margins of De Gruyter. Maybe I missed something. If this information is publicly available, I would like to know.
Dear Stefan,
ReplyDeleteI put your point to De Gruyter, who replied thus:
"All German companies have to publish their annual finance statement in the 'Bundesanzeiger'.
De Gruyter you will find here":
http://goo.gl/QPxAme
ReplyDeletehttp://goo.gl/QPxAme
fails thusly:
Achtung
Sie haben längere Zeit keine Eingaben mehr gemacht.
Aus Sicherheitsgründen wurde Ihre Sitzung beendet. Bitte starten Sie die Suche neu.
[Warning
You haven't made any entries for a while.
For security reasons your session has ended. Please start a new search.]
I'm afraid it is for someone who leans less heavily on Google Translate when decoding German to repeat the search and post the info.
Thanks for this Douglas.
ReplyDeleteI think the problem is that it is a live system.
If you message me with your email account I can try and send you the data that way.