Founded in 1999 by three Berkeley professors, bepress (formerly Berkeley Electronic Press)
spent the first decade of its existence building up a portfolio of peer-reviewed
journals — much like any scholarly publisher. In 2011, however, it took what might seem like a surprising
decision: it decided to sell all its journals to De Gruyter and reinvent itself as a technology company.
Jean-Gabriel Bankier |
Instead of publishing journals, bepress is now
focussed on developing and licensing the publishing technology it created
for its earlier publishing activities, and its flagship product is a cloud-based institutional
repository/publishing platform called Digital Commons.
Digital Commons is currently licensed to more than
320 academic institutions, who use the software to
publish over 700 journals, 94% of which are open access. This publishing activity
is invariably managed by the institution’s library, and often includes the publishing of books,
conference proceedings, data sets, audio-visual collections, and other digital
content types too.
Is this a sign of things to come: Publishers becoming
technology companies and librarians becoming publishers? President and CEO of bepress Jean-Gabriel Bankier believes it is. As he puts it in the Q&A
below, “Library-led
publishing is an integral strategy in the university taking back ownership of
scholarly communication.” As such, he adds, the future of scholarly publishing now “lies in
the hands of libraries and scholars.”
To support his argument Bankier cites a US study in which 55% of the universities and colleges surveyed said that
they are offering or considering offering library publishing services.
Moreover, bepress is not the only game in town
for libraries looking for a publishing platform. In 2001 the Public Knowledge Project released the first version of the open-source publishing software Open Journals Systems (OJS), and today OJS estimates that over 6,000 journals are being published using its software. Many of these journals are undoubtedly being published (or soon will be published) by university libraries — e.g. the library at University College London and Stellenbosch University library.
We could also note that in 2012 US-based Amherst College announced that it was launching its own press. This will publish peer-reviewed books in the liberal arts, and will be managed by the library.
What all this means, says Bankier, is that
if publishers “want to continue to play a significant role in supporting the
changing needs of the research community” they will need to consider following the example of
bepress, and morph from content provider to technology company.
Doubtless other publishers would challenge this assertion. But whatever the future holds, I think anyone interested in open access, or scholarly communication more generally, will find what Bankier has to say below of great interest.
The Q&A begins
RP: As I
understand it, bepress was founded as a scholarly publisher in 1999. Can you
say briefly who founded it and what the initial goal was? Is it for profit or non-profit?
J-G B: In 1999, UC Berkeley professors Robert Cooter, Aaron Edlin, and Ben Hermalin banded together to launch Berkeley Electronic
Press, now simply called bepress.
The heart of bepress has always been about listening
to faculty and responding with simple technology-based solutions that support
scholars in the rapidly changing world of scholarly communications.
Initially, for us, that meant exploring alternatives to commercial scholarly
journal publishing which were plagued by slow turnaround times, limited access,
and unreasonable prices. Later, that meant providing authors and
universities themselves with the means to publish their research openly and
widely. We are a for-profit company.
RP:
You say bepress is a for-profit company. I assume the shareholders are the
three founders? Can you tell me what the company’s revenues and profits were
for the last financial year?
J-G B: Yes, the founders are shareholders. The company was born with just a
little seed money from the founders, parents, and incredibly supportive friends
and neighbours, most of whom continue to own part of the company. Bepress has
never had venture capital or private equity. Berkeley isn't far from Silicon
Valley, but we weren't that kind of start-up. Our first office, after we moved
out of one of the founder's kitchen, had no natural lighting and ceilings so
low that it necessitated skidding around mismatching, three-wheeled chairs to
avoid banging one's head on the ceiling.
I'm happy to report that around 15 years later, we've now got
offices with actual windows and chairs that don't wobble. Our business doesn't
wobble any more either. Our revenues are around $10 million a year with an
unbelievably low cancelation rate for subscribers (below 1% in 2013). We are
very stable and run at a modest profit. It is a great feeling to finally be
able to send small dividend checks to those friends and family members who put
their faith in us back in the beginning.
RP: How many journals did bepress come
to publish, in what fields, and were they subscription journals or OA journals?
J-G B: We started with a few titles in economics, and eventually grew to
publish roughly 65 journals altogether. In addition to economics, our emphasis
was in education, health and medicine, law, policy, science and technology, and
statistics.
We simultaneously
sold subscriptions to libraries and made the articles freely available online. Many
people suggested that we were crazy to use such a model, but it was really the
best of all worlds. The authors and editors got to maximize readership and
share their ideas, readers got access to high quality scholarship, and
libraries got a sustainable journal subscription model. We raised prices on our
journals by a grand total of only three percent over 10 years.
RP: In 2011 bepress sold all its journals to the German publisher
De Gruyter in order to focus on developing software tools to assist the
research community publish its own journals. Why?
J-G B: The library community had little
appetite for new subscription journals, but a big appetite to support
publishing on their campuses. According to one study produced by the libraries of Purdue University, Georgia Institute
of Technology, and University of
Utah in 2012, “55% of
universities and colleges are offering or considering library publishing
services.”
We saw this
change in appetite first-hand. In the one-year period predating the sale, we
launched only four new journals under the bepress moniker. Over the same period,
we helped libraries launch over 100 new open-access journal titles using our
software. Starting new commercial journals had become a challenge. By our count
Springer, Taylor & Francis, and Sage and Wiley together introduced fewer
new journal titles to market in 2012 than the publishing programs of the Digital
Commons’ community of libraries.
Given this
change, it became clear that the best way for us to advance scholarly
communications was to focus our energy on supporting library-led publishing, so
we exited the commercial subscription-based journal business.
It is worth
noting that some of the editors who started their journals in Digital Commons
had originally approached commercial publishers. One acquisitions editor from a
major publisher looked at the list of journals that publish on Digital Commons
and wistfully listed those that had approached her but were impossible to take
on because of the economics of subscription sales.
Behind the scenes
something very interesting was going on in scholarly communications. Libraries
had made it more risky for publishers to start new journals. In turn, some
publishers tried passing that risk onto editors, societies, and universities in
the form of minimum number of guaranteed subscriptions or minimum annual
guaranteed payments. Luckily, many of those journals had another option: to
come to their libraries for publishing support.
Today Digital
Commons is used by over 700 journals. We believe the future of scholarly
publishing lies in the hands of libraries and scholars.
RP: I am particularly interested in the products Digital Commons
and SelectedWorks. Can you say something about these and give me some
indication of pricing?
J-G B: Digital Commons is a hosted platform designed
for the full spectrum of scholarly publishing. We provide libraries the tools,
training, and expertise to build essential publishing programs on their campuses.
Digital Commons supports
journals as well as books, conference proceedings, data sets, audio-visual collections,
and all other digital content types that showcase the whole of an institution’s
publications and scholarly output. The content is all the institution’s own; we provide
the platform, the support and the expertise.
University of Wollongong Research Online and Purdue University’s ePubs are two great examples of the Digital Commons publishing platform in action.
SelectedWorks is
the author equivalent to Digital Commons. It allows faculty to organize and
share the breadth of their research, works, and achievements. A
SelectedWorks site looks like this. These faculty profiles can be integrated
with Digital Commons to allow authors to have their works and profile
discoverable alongside the institution's broader scholarly corpus. Integration
with the Digital Commons Network takes that connection one step
further by tying together the works of authors with the works of others in
their discipline.
As for cost, Digital
Commons and SelectedWorks together cost a fraction of an FTE; far less than the
cost of having local staff to support users and open source publishing systems
in a comparable manner.
Inspiring to see
RP: You say that Digital Commons costs a fraction of an FTE. I wonder if you
could expand on that. Since it is a hosted service I assume Digital Commons is
billed by means of an annual subscription, rather than a one-off payment. Could
you give me some specific examples of what different sorts of libraries could
expect to pay per annum to use the service?
J-G B: You are correct. Both Digital Commons and
SelectedWorks are sold as annual subscriptions. Size, as determined by FTE, plays an important
role in pricing. As you might guess, larger institutions pay more than smaller
ones. The average annual subscription fee for Digital Commons and SelectedWorks
in 2013 for an academic library was around $20,000 and $8,000 a year respectively.
RP: As I
understand it, Digital Commons is designed to allow universities to publish
their own journals on top of their institutional repositories. Presumably it
does not matter which repository software they use? Can you say how many
universities are currently publishing journals in this way, and what has
motivated them to do so? Are they all US-based institutions?
J-G B: Digital Commons is an integrated platform to
support the full spectrum of scholarly publishing and institutional repository needs.
Imagine ContentDM, DSpace, Dryad, Figshare, ePrints, Open Journal Systems, Open Monograph
Press, and Open Conference Systems all rolled into one solution, and you
have the Digital Commons platform.
For some
institutions, Digital Commons on its own meets all of their publishing and
repository needs. Others use Digital Commons in combination with a myriad of local
digital preservation and digital asset management solutions. There is,
nonetheless, a clear trend toward gradual consolidation as institutions migrate
collections stored on DSpace, ContentDM, Omeka, and OJS onto
Digital Commons.
There are more
than 320 academic institutions that currently use Digital Commons
for the full spectrum of scholarly publishing. Three hundred of those are U.S.
based institutions and the remaining 20 institutions are in Canada, Australia,
Asia, and Europe. These publishing programs are being led by campus
libraries that see the opportunity to meet the publishing needs of their
faculty and students in a scalable way. It’s been inspiring to see how much
faculty and student editors appreciate the library in this new role, and how it
has improved their perception of the library’s role on campus.
RP: How does Digital Commons differ from OJS? For instance, Digital
Commons is not open source I think. If not, presumably Digital Commons is a
more expensive option? And if so, what extra value does bepress offer?
J-G B: Digital Commons is not open source like OJS. I’m
a fan of open source software, but I’m an even bigger fan of software in the
cloud. Cloud-based ejournal publishing software is the future; it is easier to
use, scale, build upon, and support. Digital Commons is delivered via the
cloud, while OJS is mostly locally installed.
As I mentioned
earlier, Digital Commons costs a fraction of an FTE, which makes it cheaper
than installing and maintaining local software whether open source or
otherwise. That is all the more true when one considers the many systems people
wish to integrate with that continuously change and therefore require code
changes. On top of that, as soon as you take advantage of the open source
software by modifying the code, you will typically find yourself stranded in a
given version or investing serious money to port your modifications to a newer
version.
Let me give you a
concrete example: I’m sure you won’t be surprised to hear that readership on
tablets and mobile devices is booming. Faculty want the fruits of their labor —
their journal — to look great on their iPads and iPhones. In response to this
growing demand, last year we rolled out responsive designs for all of the
journals, repositories, and other collections on Digital Commons and
SelectedWorks.
This means that the web pages
respond to the visitor's screen size and change the layout accordingly, so it means
the journals look great on an iPhone. Check out this Digital Commons journal example on your mobile phone and then go look at your
favourite OJS journal. It was a significant amount of work for us to produce a
beautiful mobile interface for journals, but the beauty of a service in the
cloud is that once we got it right it was a snap to roll it out for everyone in
the community.
But, while we are
low cost, we compete mainly by being high value. Moving beyond where the code
is stored, Digital Commons also differs from OJS because Digital Commons is a
service, not just software. By that I mean it includes people with publishing
and technology knowledge who support editors with site design, workflow design,
support, training, and publishing expertise. And, for those journals ready for
it, Digital Commons includes additional professional publishing services such
as abstracting and indexing, DOIs, and preservation in CLOCKSS and Portico.
Finally, we
provide service without limits: unlimited storage, unlimited users, unlimited
training, unlimited support, unlimited journals, unlimited bandwidth, unlimited
upgrades...you get the point.
Our approach
frees libraries and journal editors from the technical hassles of running
software so they can focus on running a journal. We all know it is a lot of
hard work to launch a new journal—e.g., recruiting an editorial board,
recruiting authors, and preparing a first issue.
We
see our role as helping with everything else. We’ve seen that when given such
support that library-publishing programs flourish.
Brigham Young University and Kansas State University’s New Prairie Press are both recent examples of converts
from OJS to Digital Commons.
Philosophical and practical questions
RP: You said that
institutions are migrating to Digital Commons from platforms like DSpace, Omeka
and OJS. The latter are open source platforms, whereas Digital Commons is a
proprietary platform. I suspect that some OA advocates might argue a) that open
source solutions are more appropriate for library-led publishing (since, for
instance, open source could be said to better fit with a university’s mission)
and, b) proprietary platforms introduce the danger of vendor lock in. I wonder
if you could respond to these two points.
J-G B: I know your question reflects the viewpoint
of some in the community. I believe it’s something felt stronger on your side
of the Atlantic than on my side these days, but I also know that the libraries
that use our services sometimes face these types of questions as well.
I think the
question of “are you using the ‘right’ kind of software for your open access
initiative?” has the unfortunate effect of dividing the community. The bepress
community of scholarly communications libraries are no less committed to open
access than libraries using open source software, but taken to the extreme, this
question devalues the accomplishments of the librarians who build successful OA publishing
programs on their
campuses using options like Digital Commons.
You were spot on in your Q & A about the state of open
access when you
identified the lack of cohesion in the OA movement as its biggest failure to
date. For those who missed the piece, you wrote: “I wonder if the movement has
not been its own worst enemy. After all, it is far from unified, and it has
spent a great deal of valuable time arguing with itself rather than winning
hearts and minds or taking the practical action needed to achieve its
objectives.” I would argue that Digital Commons is one such practical option
for libraries to pursue open access library publishing.
Now I’ll hop down
from my soapbox and respond to the two parts of your question. The first part,
(a), is philosophical and principled while the second part, (b), is practical.
I’m going to tackle the practical argument about vendor lock-in first. I would argue
that established open standards are pretty good protections against vendor lock-in.
It is really not complicated to migrate from one platform to another platform
because all platforms in the space, including Digital Commons, support an open
standard, called Open Archives Initiative (OAI). We’ve supported the move of
more than 50 collections from different locally-hosted, open source platforms
to Digital Commons (and a handful the other way as well). At the end of the day, the content and
metadata are easily portable.
To your first point
(a), the connection between open source and open access is strong in the
library community, no doubt about it. But here’s the rub: library-led
publishing is not a service intended for librarians. It is a service for
faculty and students provided to them by their library.
Faculty and
students are a demanding bunch; they are increasingly comfortable evaluating
all sorts of digital tools, and they expect the best in the tools they choose for
themselves. They have a certain goal — to publish a successful journal, for
example — and they will be grateful when the library provides them with an
excellent publishing experience. If they are poorly served, they will either abandon
their library as a publishing partner, or perhaps worse yet, accept the service
and complain about it. To meet its mission, the library should ask, “How can I
provide the best publishing services to my campus, given the available
resources?”
Librarian Karen G. Schneider summed it up better than I ever could when she wrote: “I hate the
idea that for some librarians if a particular software is open source, hands
down, it’s the right choice. The right choice is the software that meets the
mission. While the principles behind open source are admirable, when an
open-source product doesn’t meet your library’s needs, your first obligation is
to your users.” Karen G.
Schneider on July 26, 2006.
RP: Realistically,
how simple is it to start publishing a journal using Digital Commons? Is much
training required?
J-G B: From our perspective, it is possible to launch a journal
and train the editors in a day. If your question is "how easy is it for
editors to learn to use the platform?" then the answer is: very easy.
Editors tell us
that ours is the easiest to use of all the manuscript submission systems out
there. We do all the work of customizing workflows for them. They learn the
system in an hour (or an hour and a half if there are lots of editors learning
simultaneously), but we train and re-train them as often as necessary.
This model of
unlimited support is especially valued by libraries that would like to support
student publishing efforts. Students graduate, and the editorship changes
hands; it’s a big relief to the library to always have bepress available to
train students and answer all of their questions, and to serve as institutional
memory when the editorship changes hands.
RP: Are universities
(presumably the librarians) able to do all the work themselves, or do they need
to buy support services? If so, what kind of support services, and how much are
these likely to cost?
J-G B: Librarians certainly could do all of this work
themselves. They have to do all the work with OJS already, after all. With
Digital Commons, however, they get teams of publishing experts and platform
experts at the ready to help them support their faculty and students. There are
no extra costs, so they don’t have to second-guess themselves if they ever want
more help or services. They can say “yes” to all the requests and questions
from their editors and authors. Unlimited support and service is incredibly
important to us for this very reason.
Trend is towards openness
RP: I am told
that most of the journals using Digital Commons are OA journals. Are you able
to give me any stats on this, and current trends?
J-G B: 94% of the journals using Digital Commons are
open access, and of the 6% that are subscription-controlled, the majority make
their back issues openly available.
The current trend
is towards openness as more journal editors realize that the more open they
make their journals, the greater their success. It’s been several years since
we’ve seen editors of an open access journal using Digital Commons jump ship to
sign on with a publisher and move their content behind a pay wall.
In fact, we’ve
seen just the opposite — editors of subscription journals making their back
issues open access, in turn increasing readership and subscriptions revenues.
We’ve also seen
editors of subscription journals with open back archives on Digital Commons take
the next step and abandon the subscription model altogether for open access.
We’ve even had a
few journals leave publishers for the library in order to make their journals
open access. If you look at the Law Review Commons alone, you will find over 170
journals that are open access, almost all of which used to be exclusively
subscription access.
RP: How do universities
fund the OA journals they publish using Digital Commons, and can you say
something about the average total annual cost of running an OA journal on Digital
Commons? Do many of the journals operate article-processing charges?
J-G B: With one exception, none of the
journals operate an article-processing charge. Authors who publish in these
journals can be sure that their scholarship has been accepted by the journal on
its merits alone. The one exception is the “Open Journal
of Occupational Therapy” at Western
Michigan University.
It charges an article processing fee of $200, and $100 for student authors.
Because the Digital Commons publishing model
is unlimited, once the university makes the initial investment, they can
support as many journals and other publications as they would like.
Most libraries consider supporting a
publishing program on campus to fall into their core service offerings, and the
fact that publishing capabilities are simply part of our integrated platform
makes it easy for them to support the full spectrum of needs, such as conferences,
data sets, multimedia publications, textbooks, and so on. There are so many
publishing needs on campus when you understand it as a full spectrum, and
librarians are eager to meet those needs.
RP: You say that the publishing program is usually
treated as part of a library’s core service offering. Do I understand from this
that we cannot know what it costs to run a journal on Digital Commons as
libraries don’t break out the costs?
J-G B: I see that I didn’t answer your last question
very well. Thanks for giving me a second shot. This is actually a really tricky
question because the incremental cost of running a journal on Digital Commons
is zero. There is no charge per journal. Digital Commons is kind of like those
passes you used to get to travel all around Europe by train. I think they were
called Eurail in the US and InterRail in Europe. Your question is like asking
me “how much did the trip from London to Paris cost?” Since I paid one flat fee
for the pass, dividing it up to figure out exactly how much one specific trip
cost would depend on how many other trips I took.
One thing is for
sure; when I travelled by train in my youth I was certainly incentivized to
take full advantage of my pass. It allowed me the opportunity to explore and
experiment. We find that libraries that use Digital Commons are equally incentivized
to get the maximum out of their investment. We think it is clearly a model that
works.
However, with
Digital Commons the benefits of the unlimited service are actually much better than
an unlimited train pass because the benefits are cumulative — so journals launched
in any given year are always covered in all future years, with no related change
in cost.
RP: Can you share
with me any other stats that would give readers a sense of what is happening in
the scholarly communication space currently, especially with regard to OA?
J-G B: We recently presented a poster at the Library Publishing Forum in Kansas
City that offered a number of interesting statistics. I think one of the most
interesting ones is what we’re seeing in terms of the growth and success of
library-led, open access publishing.
We’re seeing an
increasing number of institutions supporting not just two or three journals,
but ten, fifteen, or even twenty journals. These journals are often serving the needs of
underserved disciplines, such as arts and humanities and education.
RP: There is a
lot of talk today about the need for the research community to “take back
ownership” of scholarly communication. What are you views on this, and where do
you see Digital Commons fitting into the debate? Are the journals being
published using Digital Commons merely a fringe activity in your view, or are
they the first buds of a revolution that will see today’s scholarly publishers
disintermediated?
J-G B: Library-led publishing is an integral strategy in the university taking back ownership of scholarly communication. For the library to offer publishing as a campus-based service means that faculty and students have access to professional publishing tools from their own university, without needing to deal with commercial platforms or predatory publishers.
J-G B: Library-led publishing is an integral strategy in the university taking back ownership of scholarly communication. For the library to offer publishing as a campus-based service means that faculty and students have access to professional publishing tools from their own university, without needing to deal with commercial platforms or predatory publishers.
I’ve been
attending the SPARC conference (the major OA event in the US) since 2008 and
this year was the first time I had an overwhelming feeling that there is simply
no slowing down the open access movement. It is raining green and gold. The
benefits to authors, editors, readers and academic institutions are too great.
Our momentum is unstoppable.
And let me add
one trend that I think speaks volumes about the fact that this is far beyond
the first buds of a revolution. 143 of the journals hosted on Digital Commons
are edited not by faculty, but by graduate students and undergraduate students.
In an article about the award-winning Journal of Critical Thought and Praxis, founder Cameron Beatty
explained the value of their new journal succinctly when he said “We were doing social justice work and
some of the journals we wanted to get published in weren’t necessarily
interested in the work that we were doing. So we were like, ‘What does this
mean for us as graduate students? We need to get a job; we need to get
published. Where is there a space for us that want to do critical social
justice work? Why don’t we create our own?’”
Let’s turn now to
the undergraduate journals. As a research apprenticeship, students are learning
far more than the principles of peer review or how to deal with an editorial
board (though that’s all really useful). They’re learning that they can have
direct access to scholarly publishing, and that they can take a journal from
idea to fully realized publication just by talking to their library. It’s going
to be awfully hard to explain to them why they can’t just keep doing that when
they become professional academics themselves.
If you are
interested to learn why faculty and students are excited about this trend in
their own words, I highly recommend this Webinar. I also would suggest following Scholarly
Communications Librarian and Associate Professor Stephanie Davis-Kahl, from Illinois
Wesleyan University. In March she
was named the 2014 ACRL/EBSS Distinguished Librarian.
Transition from publisher to technology company
RP: There is also a view that scholarly publishers will need to
morph from being content providers to technology companies. Would you say that
this is the path that bepress has taken? If so, do you expect all or most
scholarly publishers to have to take the same path in the coming years?
J-G B: For us, the move from publisher to
technology company was organic. We only became a technology company when the
tools we created and honed to support our own journals became popular. Editors
started asking us if they could use our tools when working with other
publishers. We began licensing the software as a service and realized that
there was a great need for both the software and the support bepress provided,
including technical updates, publishing expertise, optimized web discovery, and
customer support. We saw that, in line with our mission, we could serve the
unmet needs of scholars by offering this software service more widely.
All in all, our complete transition from publisher
to technology company took ten years. We were early, but I do think other scholarly
publishers are going to have to follow a similar path from content provider to
technology company if they want to continue to play a significant role in
supporting the changing needs of the research community.
RP: What other changes do you see for scholarly communication
going forward: the phasing out of pre-publication peer review? The death of the
traditional journal and paper? Other likely developments?
J-G B: The consideration of new forms of
review is extremely valuable, but I do not ultimately see the phasing out of
pre-publication peer-review. If anything, I see a phasing in of pre-publication
peer review, especially among undergraduates — we’ve seen it become a valuable
teaching tool that improves the quality of the student work at many
institutions. It is a just a matter of time before peer-review tools also find
their way into primary education. My oldest son is nine, by the time he is in
high-school, peer-review publishing will be part of his curriculum. There are
already a few such journals.
Though print is slowly becoming less
prevalent, I do not see the passing of the traditional journal model. These
will remain as the cornerstones of scholarly communications for some time. This
doesn’t mean that there will be no change — there already has been.
The biggest that we’ve seen is an increasing
acceptance that there is a continuum of scholarship so that other works, in
addition to the peer-reviewed articles, will count toward tenure and promotion.
So in addition to providing tools to publish traditional journals, we are
constantly seeking ways to support the publication of these other types of
works.
Ultimately, the biggest change I see happening
is increased awareness on the part of academic libraries that library-led
publishing should be a core service that they offer to their faculty and to
their students, and that this is a natural role for them that fits into their
existing skills, their mission, and the future of their profession.
RP: Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions.
2 comments:
Very interesting, and encouraging!
"bepress is not the only game in town for libraries looking for a publishing platform. In 2001 the Public Knowledge Project released the first version of the open-source publishing software Open Journals Systems (OJS), and today OJS estimates that over 6,000 journals are being published using its software."
Just to mention a few other alternatives.
Annotum is an open-source publishing platform based on WordPress, which is used by PLOS Currents.
The widely-admired PeerJ system is freely available on GitHub (though there's no single installable package to my knowledge).
I know I've read about others, but can't call them to mind right now: anyone?
Sounds like great news... but the fact that bepress sold all its journals to De Gruyter makes it clear that like any commercial entity, we have to be careful to remember they're in this for the money. This is okay as long as we don't forget and make the mistake of assuming they're "benevolent".
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